Comments on: consider the advice ban lifted. temporarily.

By: Lisa

Lisa — Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:33:20 +0000

Lots of advice and opinions here and since you asked for it...

I've worked in male-dominated fields all my life: auto trade, horse racing and software development. I've learned that you can't change your boss and you can't make men stop playing power games - you can only try to play the game better than them. Alternatively, since you can't change your boss, sometimes the only other option is to change your job.

By: Katherine

Katherine — Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:24:37 +0000

Having read all the previous comments I need to add something to my own long winded ‘blah.’ Re the fishnets and clothing: In no way – in my comments – did I intend to suggest your outfit contributed to your experience. I was just putting out my two cents about clothing that makes me comfy in the workplace and not. Also, I can get away with wearing pretty much anything here because I don’t see “clients” often. I’m the researcher/writer person. When I do see clients I dress up. I have always found excessive male attention unnerving and uncomfortable so I tend to avoid clothing which could be construed as sexy or inviting, but let’s face it, if you’re pretty, a garbage bag is a turn on to the average joe. It sounds like you’re a very classy beautiful intelligent girl and let me tell ya, in my experience and the experience of other classy beautiful intelligent gals, it’s almost impossible to “get away with” being beautiful AND intelligent cause men in business aren’t often very comfy when you are both. Particularly guys who feel insecure around women can get downright nasty. With this particular dude, you have to find your ground because his abuse will escalate. He’ll push as far as he can. Uninvited touching is crossing a glaringly obvious line. He knows this already. It may not be possible for you to address this incident, but you’ll need to come up with a ready response because you can expect more from this guy. Sexual harassment/univited touching is a form of bullying. His touch was invasive, a show of power. I’d avoid seeing him alone in his office in the future – try and have witnesses present. In the event you find yourself in a similar situation, you need to deal with it immediately. Firmly, but without so much as a speck of emotion…i.e. like Emma Peal would. Oh and re the comments about you shouldn’t wear fishnets, well with this guy I’d up the ante and hike up the skirt a little. Make the beeotch sweat. A tough – i.e. beautiful AND classy AND intelligent woman – is no pushover regardless of what she’s wearing. Maybe you can find some lethal weapon pantyhose. Go fish!

By: Katherine

Katherine — Thu, 27 Nov 2003 05:14:01 +0000

Like you need another comment after 31 already. But here’s another – long one. I’ve worked in two male dominated fields – first one was systems – had a male boss who treated all of his employees equally. Like shit. Though privately he was always praising me, he refused to give me a raise the first time I asked. I did a little digging and realized he was being tight with everyone so I organized a little revolt amongst the employees and he gave us all raises. Yay. Still, after a year and a half I walked because this guy was a pig and a micromanager and I refused to tolerate his behaviour. My male colleagues were all – but one – competitive, exclusive and creepy toward the women. Example: they wouldn’t invite the women to have coffee with them. I invited myself along one day, much to their chagrin, and broke the clique up because one of the guys and I hit it off (platonic friendship). I hated working there and after a year and a half realized it wasn’t about to change and I needed to move on. Second, much more interesting job: economic analysis. I work with both men and women but there are many more men than women in this field. Thankfully I have my own office…don’t have to see my colleagues – most of whom are wacked – often. My boss is male and for the most part leaves me alone. Micromanaging bosses disgust me and my boss is the opposite of this. He is also not flirtatious and he’s not interested in small talk. He’s been cruel occasionally but I notice he’s like this with everyone. I can deal with him. The younger men I work with are much different in their attitudes and approach than the older ones. The older ones (40s and 50s) are flirtatious, inappropriate (often), competitive, patronizing and easily offended (i.e. if your retort bests theirs they get vindictively pissy). I walked on eggshells around these guys at first and no longer do. They respect my work but still like to treat me “like a girl.” I tend to be reserved around them and seldom share any info about my personal life. I have learned to suppress my sexuality in the workplace for the most part. I’d never wear fishnets and although my hair is on the long side, I wear it up at work. Is this a cop out? I dunno… I’m more comfortable not being on the receiving end of attention. My body language is also fiercely Emma Peal (she’s a great role model). I also dress down a lot…wear my gym gear to work. I rarely wear suits. I’d never wear fishnets just cause I hate the feel of them, but I tend not to wear clothing that attracts sexual attention. The one time I wore a peasanty – very feminine blouse to work, I got all this f’ing attention and it was just weird. Like these guys are in maximum security and have no feminine contact? I’ve found that men (sorry to generalize) are infatuated by their idea of who you must be. So they see blonde long hair and stylish clothes and an attractive bod and they conjur up some personality to go with it. I’m astounded by the fantasies men have about who women are. I dated a civil engineer who on our first (and last) date told me who I was…it had nothing to do with me or my experience, but he, upon first meeting me “figured you must be…” blech. It’s pathetic. But all that being said, you might find this site interesting: http://www.breakingranks.net/ (Robert Fuller has apparently written a book about the scourge of “rankism”). Have no idea if it’s any good but maybe worth a look?

By: Windy

Windy — Thu, 27 Nov 2003 03:38:20 +0000

I think the advice to talk to your chairman and let him know that you were uncomfortable with his touching you and to please not do it again is great advice. Do this as soon as possible.

According to our HR department, the first time someone does something (touch you, invite you to a strip club, show you a naked picture of themselves, etc.) it is not harrassment. Basically, people can test the boundaries, as it were. Once they are told the behavior is unacceptable after the first time it occurs and they try it again, that is harrassment and should be dealt with.

Make sure you talk to this person and let him know as straightforwardly as possible that that type of behavior is unacceptable to you. If possible, have someone you trust accompany you to your meeting with him.

Oh, and what you wear or don't wear has absolutely no bearing on this incident and should not even be discussed. The only time clothing can be discussed at your job is if there is a dress code and even then, unless you are required to wear a company uniform, there is really not much a company can do officially.

Good luck.

By: Rocco Yamamoto

Rocco Yamamoto — Thu, 27 Nov 2003 03:01:36 +0000

I once knew a girl who wore fishnets. She was a hooker. And, oh yeah, I had my hands ALL up in her clothes. And more.

Mmm. Hookers.