This Fish Needs A Bicycle

Boots. (Who wears boots to the office?)
"Filmy" shirt (Does that mean translucent?).
Fishnets. (There is no such thing as "tasteful" fishnets in an office environment.)

No, you shouldn't be judged by your clothes.
But, you will be.

Dress as conservatively as the people two rungs up the ladder from you. It will be reflected in how seriously you get taken.

I meant to add: that guy had no right to touch you.

I understand that you're in a very awkward position, and it sucks. If it happens again, I recommend saying loudly and incredulously, while stepping back, "What the hell are you doing?" The more it sounds like an utterly spontaneous reaction to his totally inappropriate behavior, the more effective it will be.

I respectfully suggest that one's clothing in the office is never an invitation or an excuse for someone to put their hands on your person in such a manner. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression Fish may work in a creative industry where, perhaps, more individuality is allowed in fashion. I can picture her outfit and it doesn't seem inappropriate at all.

Nevertheless, I have no response for how to handle this -- I actually gasped when I read what Higher Up Who Lacks Boundaries did -- but I'm horrified right alongside you.

Is there anyone at Monkey Job whose advice you trust? What about your former supervisor, the one you had drinks with not too long ago.

Good luck!

I am sorry to hear about this. I assume that there's no company policy about this kind of conduct, along with no HR department. This kind of behavior would count as evidence of sexual harassment, though it might not be actionable unless it were part of a broader pattern creating a hostile work environment, or unless you could tie it to some adverse personnnel decision (like your lost promotion). I think that the conventional advice is to tell your Chairman that the behavior is unwelcome, both as a means of getting him to stop (e.g., if he were oddly unaware that his conduct was inappropriate) and as a means of laying the groundwork for legal action should it continue. This has obvious potential downsides for your relationship with the fellow, and it may be hard for you to connect the dots if it results in retaliation. In any event, do seek out legal advice, ideally from a lawyer, but at the very least from Google. Again, my deepest sympathies -- it's unjust that you should have to be contemplating this at all.

oh, I am so sorry. You shouldn't have to put up with anything like that, anything, no matter what you were wearing. And it's not as if you were dressed bimboishly. Even if you were, that's not the point, and you shouldn't have been made uncomfortable.

i'm so sorry that you can't do much about it, too. all i can recommend is that if anything like that were to ever happen again, you let the Chairman know, firmly, that you don't appreciate it.

holy god. i'm so sorry something like this happened to you, and that you're now rendered helpless.

stupid higher ups.

Get a new job. Or sue and get your name on the door. I am in the same monkey job profession and they (men) are like that everywhere in this industry. It sucks but its true. The amount of porn and ridecule for women in this industry, you would think we work w/ truckers. I have personally called a guy on it and now they are all afraid of me and its better this way.

Re: boots in the office... TOTALLY acceptable.
Re: fimly shirt... in that it wasn't stiff enough for the collar to stay above the lapel of my suit coat. not see-through in the least.
Re: fishnets. TOTALLY acceptable and only three inches of them were showing. This wasn't Moulin Rouge for God's sake.

OMG! I am OUTRAGED!

I'll take care of it for you! Ask Di-she knows I will!

I am all for the aforementioned outburst already prescribed. Practice your "What the Fuck"s and Explain that you outgrew the need for parental help with getting dressed many years ago.

As for any percieved clothing indescretion, I once told by an investigating police officer "you have the right to walk down the street naked and not be harrassed, attacked, assaulted..."

Boundaries are boundaries and some people have to be taught. Sometimes, a simple "I'm not confortable with you this close" gets the message across. But that isn't always my style...

The last man that harrassed me was fired-on Christmas Eve, the idiot fuck. He insisted I had to deal with his crap becasue I was working in a man's field too-a hardware store. Pfft!

Oops..I mean an investigating officer told ME...

OK, advice. First of all, despite recommendations above, do NOT say "fuck" to the Chairbeing. If you want credibility, that is. Swearing will instantly discredit you.

And yes, altho' you shouldn't be judged by your couture, you will be. No matter how tasteful, dump anything filmy or fishnet from your working wardrobe and save it to wear socially. Dressing conservatively (and dressing as if you had the job you want) sends a subliminal message. It's a game, yes, but it sounds like winning might appeal to you :-}.

Finally, I think you can approach the Chairman, even after the incident, and ask to have a private word with him. Then, in the nicest nonjudgemental way you can manage, tell him you were very much taken aback by his tucking in your shirt the other day, and it's been on your mind ever since. You'd prefer not to be be touched in a professional environmnet or office. That's it: just state how you feel and how you'd like to be treated. If he tries to make excuses, you can cut him off by saying that you don't want to discuss The Incident, you just want to make you preferences known.

Extracurricular reading: Getting To Yes and Difficult Conversations (authors forgotten, but look 'em up under Amazon (and then buy from a local independant bookstore :-}).

Good luck. I feel very strongly that you do have rights in your workplace, and you don't have to accept faux pas like this. *He* may have lousy boundaries, but you don't. Being nonconfrontational/nonjudgemental may not be very satisfying, but it might diffuse the status differences and/or promote respect. Stay focused on your goals -- and think of a way to frame those goals so that he'd be an idiot not to share them (i.e., "I want to maintain an effective working relationship with everyone here, and I find it easier to do so if there are distinctions between my office interactions and my social interactions." Something like that. How can he argue with a goal like "an effective working relationship"?) Act respectful, even if you don't feel that way (*I* certainly wouldn't!)

If you say nothing, he may do it again. Or it may color his attitude toward you.

Oh, and if you say that you don't want to be touched in an office environment, you'll have to follow up with your other co-workers. It won't work if (outside the ladies' room) you hug colleagues or put each other's hair up, or flirt with casual touches... if he sees that, he'll dismiss your complaint. If you don't feel comfortable in a touch-free work environment, that's okay too -- find another angle. Also, consider how to manage those weird social/work situations, like the party. I could envision Chairman assuming that he could break rules there. Just consider it -- you don't have to take action unless he pushes it.

Again, all the best -- what a jerk that fellow is!

ers: While I totally hear ya, I have to say -

Pardon my indignance, but I totally stand by my clothing choice. It was not only modest (Ann Taylor doesn't MAKE scandalous clothing) but totally and completely appropriate according to office precedent. Three inches of fishnet tights (which my boss said were "wicked cute") should in NO way relegate someone to the disrespect I put up with. The walls of my office are fuscia. We brainstorm on a trampoline. THREE FUCKING INCHES of hose and I have to accept his judgment? NO way.

And though the shirt was filmy, it was under a BUTTONED suit coat. the only film one would see is the collar.

AND!! It's a $400 suit. If dressing for the job I want requires better... they'd better step it up on the pay check.

Hey, I didn't say he was right or this is fair. Not in the least. You were not immodestly dressed. You were wearing some things that read as "edgy" or slightly flamboyant, rather than as conservative. The skirt and jacket were beyond reproach. I haven't seen either the blouse, the fishnets, or the boots. Consider this: you can wear one or, at most, two edgy things (including shoes, jewelry, makeup). You don't have to stop wearing fun clothes -- just be aware of how you look and how it might affect the way you're treated. (Tall boots are cool. Tall platform boots that look gothy, or have spike heels, send a different message than tall plain boots with a 1" - 2" heel, or rubber wellies. That's all.)

Women *always* have to dress more conservatively than men to get treated with the same level of respect. Yes, it sucks. And maybe if you have terrific credentials, a more senior position, and a lot of experience, you can dress more freely and still get respect. I'm sorry if I sounded critical or judgemental. Frankly, I like the clothes you describe here, and suspect that you dress very well and creatively. And I don't claim to be right -- feel free to ignore any/everything I've said. I won't be offended.

I work in high tech, and altho' I'm not an engineer, I prefer the tshirt side of the business, not the suits. I don't own a suit. I have long hair. I'm over 40. I never interview with my hair down. I never interview wearing Birkenstocks or clogs or anything more outre than black lace-up granny boots (high heels hurt, anyway).

I save the shoulder-length earrings for when I've actually GOTTEN the job, and can wear them to work. I tend to wear skirts most of the time, but they're long. I don't wear tshirts with writing or logos or such to work, unless there's a reason to relax my general dress code. I *do* wear the drippy earrings, and I *do* wear my hair down, and I *do* wear comfortable shoes like Birks. And I overdyed my hair bright-beet-colored. I can get away with being arty, but I think I've used up my weirdness points with the hair.

I've tended to wander around the office barefoot or in socks or tights... and have been asked not to. So, these days, I don't.

I'm not so good at reading corporate culture, and I suspect there are times when I haven't fit in because I missed the cues (like my current job, dammit).

Again, good luck.

Give me his name and number.
*hugs*

As a male in a male-dominated industry, I have to say most of the guys I work with are total dorks when it comes to women (I am no exception). But then again, I am in the T-shirt and jeans division. The suits are supposed to have social skills.

It's important that this person is made aware that his conduct was unacceptable. It is equally important to have a written (or electronic) record of this, in case it becomes necessary *cough* *lawsuit* *cough*.

But seriously, ick. Good luck.

First let me start by saying, I can't even begin to imagine how you must feel.

Ann Taylor does NOT make tasteless clothes, in fact I'd consider them timeless classics. The fact that the colar of the shirt was tossled, rumpled, or what have you is not relevant. If it's the kind of suit I'm thinking of you probably didn't need to wear a shirt under it at all and could have just buttoned and been MORE than appropriate. Regardless, even if you were standing there with a breast out, someone should say "Fish that's innappropriate," not touch you to fix it. No one ever has the right to touch you without your permission.

I think (I could totally be wrong and no-one needs to ever listen to a word I say) but in the environment and situation you find yourself in you need to do some serious thinking about what you want as a result. It always makes things horrible if you're the one who makes waves, even if you're totally in the right...people never forget it.

If you don't have an HR department, I'd imagine your only recourse is to find a lawyer in employment law. If you go that route the rest of your time at the company will probably be miserable, especially because its probably going to be your word against his.

I'd probably start looking for another job and then, possibly, (if thats the route you want to go) the lawyer, so you can leave there and then begin a process. Often times you can go talk with a lawyer for a consultation for free (you usually only get 30 minutes of their time) but at least you can ask some questions.

I'd also ask you do you really want to continue to work in the kind of environment where you're denied promotions and you're getting groped without your consent? It may be time to get yourself out of that type of workplace.

Whatever you decide to do, it will be the right choice for you. I wish you all the best.

I'm pissed off that this happened, but a close second is that I'm pretty pissed off that the first couple of comments were analyzing what Fish was wearing. Get a fucking clue. I don't care if Fish was only wearing a bra and thong - you can't touch someone like that. Ever. You guys who are analyzing what Fish was wearing are making it out to be Fish's fault that this happened - it's so typical in cases of sexual harassment/assault to blame the victim.

Just haul off and smack the motherf*cker.

Am so sorry this happened to you. Just wanted to weigh in on the previous comments. You do need to let the boss know that his actions were unacceptable, otherwise he seems clueless enough that it might happen again. Do you have a mentor? That person might help you get some perspective and point you in the right direction. I'm a firm believer that sending your resume out never hurts. Also, if you're serious about pursuing litigation, start keeping a log of inappropriate comments.

It's not your fault and you couldn't have done anything to prevent it.

I was thinking you either invite Ari and Sarah Brown up from NYC to give him a beat down or your shoot out his front windows with a BB or shotgun, since you already know how that feels and it would be the equivalent of what he did to you.

But then I'm a guy, so I would come up with violent solutions.

He's a guy, so you need to deal with it the way a guy would. Get pissed off and tell him face to face that it was entirely unacceptable, and that if he ever does anything like that again, the next thing he'll see is a process server serving him with a lawsuit.

You crazy people. Sexual harrassment suit? What world do you fucking live in? He didn't ask you to blow him under the desk, he FIXED YOUR SHIRT! While slightly inappropriate, and deserving of a frown and scolding cough, I don't see the reason for all this rolling yourselves on the floor. Seriously, get a life.

Someone needs to rent "9 to 5"

sounds like you're good at what you do so find another job and quit. they'll miss you. man it's nice to type advice without fear of getting reprimanded by the fish army.

Your (female, right) boss called your fishnets "wicked cute."

Is that what you want your co-workers and their superiors to think when they see you -- "wicked cute"?

"Wicked cute" doesn't get promoted.

Of course its NO EXCUSE for being touched in appropriately.

And that is where you'd be wrong. You know what? I AM cute. SO WHAT? I'm young and attractive but I'm also pretty damn smart and I refuse to become a corporate pod person. In two years at this place, I've not only digested a completely foreign industry but been part of millions of dollars worth of new revenue. I've outlasted several layoffs, and have some seriously good relationships with a lot of the higher ups. Just not this one. So don't tell me cute is a hinderance to promotion. That's just lame.

PS If you must know, the reason I was not promoted has to do with the fact that I publicly opposed the takeover which put Evil Chairman in power, and was a tad outspoken in my support of the former chairman. And I don't believe I was wearing tights at the time. Fishnet or otherwise.

Fish,

That was to put your in your place. You opposed him being in charge. He just showed you who's boss. Not sexual at all.

Had he fondled you, that would have been sexual. This is the sort of thing we learn about in PR. How to make your opponent look the fall without crossing the line.

M Warren

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."

I've always found the above a reasonable set of expectations, and judging by them, the lovely Ms. Fish is certainly the aggrieved party here. And it's also certainly not your fault.

As for advice, well the belle pretty much said it as well as I could, so I'll just second her comments.

I once knew a girl who wore fishnets. She was a hooker. And, oh yeah, I had my hands ALL up in her clothes. And more.

Mmm. Hookers.

I think the advice to talk to your chairman and let him know that you were uncomfortable with his touching you and to please not do it again is great advice. Do this as soon as possible.

According to our HR department, the first time someone does something (touch you, invite you to a strip club, show you a naked picture of themselves, etc.) it is not harrassment. Basically, people can test the boundaries, as it were. Once they are told the behavior is unacceptable after the first time it occurs and they try it again, that is harrassment and should be dealt with.

Make sure you talk to this person and let him know as straightforwardly as possible that that type of behavior is unacceptable to you. If possible, have someone you trust accompany you to your meeting with him.

Oh, and what you wear or don't wear has absolutely no bearing on this incident and should not even be discussed. The only time clothing can be discussed at your job is if there is a dress code and even then, unless you are required to wear a company uniform, there is really not much a company can do officially.

Good luck.

Like you need another comment after 31 already. But here's another - long one. I've worked in two male dominated fields - first one was systems - had a male boss who treated all of his employees equally. Like shit. Though privately he was always praising me, he refused to give me a raise the first time I asked. I did a little digging and realized he was being tight with everyone so I organized a little revolt amongst the employees and he gave us all raises. Yay. Still, after a year and a half I walked because this guy was a pig and a micromanager and I refused to tolerate his behaviour. My male colleagues were all - but one - competitive, exclusive and creepy toward the women. Example: they wouldn't invite the women to have coffee with them. I invited myself along one day, much to their chagrin, and broke the clique up because one of the guys and I hit it off (platonic friendship). I hated working there and after a year and a half realized it wasn't about to change and I needed to move on. Second, much more interesting job: economic analysis. I work with both men and women but there are many more men than women in this field. Thankfully I have my own office...don't have to see my colleagues - most of whom are wacked - often. My boss is male and for the most part leaves me alone. Micromanaging bosses disgust me and my boss is the opposite of this. He is also not flirtatious and he's not interested in small talk. He's been cruel occasionally but I notice he's like this with everyone. I can deal with him. The younger men I work with are much different in their attitudes and approach than the older ones. The older ones (40s and 50s) are flirtatious, inappropriate (often), competitive, patronizing and easily offended (i.e. if your retort bests theirs they get vindictively pissy). I walked on eggshells around these guys at first and no longer do. They respect my work but still like to treat me "like a girl." I tend to be reserved around them and seldom share any info about my personal life. I have learned to suppress my sexuality in the workplace for the most part. I'd never wear fishnets and although my hair is on the long side, I wear it up at work. Is this a cop out? I dunno... I'm more comfortable not being on the receiving end of attention. My body language is also fiercely Emma Peal (she's a great role model). I also dress down a lot...wear my gym gear to work. I rarely wear suits. I'd never wear fishnets just cause I hate the feel of them, but I tend not to wear clothing that attracts sexual attention. The one time I wore a peasanty - very feminine blouse to work, I got all this f'ing attention and it was just weird. Like these guys are in maximum security and have no feminine contact? I've found that men (sorry to generalize) are infatuated by their idea of who you must be. So they see blonde long hair and stylish clothes and an attractive bod and they conjur up some personality to go with it. I'm astounded by the fantasies men have about who women are. I dated a civil engineer who on our first (and last) date told me who I was...it had nothing to do with me or my experience, but he, upon first meeting me "figured you must be..." blech. It's pathetic. But all that being said, you might find this site interesting: http://www.breakingranks.net/ (Robert Fuller has apparently written a book about the scourge of "rankism"). Have no idea if it's any good but maybe worth a look?

Having read all the previous comments I need to add something to my own long winded 'blah.' Re the fishnets and clothing: In no way - in my comments - did I intend to suggest your outfit contributed to your experience. I was just putting out my two cents about clothing that makes me comfy in the workplace and not. Also, I can get away with wearing pretty much anything here because I don't see "clients" often. I'm the researcher/writer person. When I do see clients I dress up. I have always found excessive male attention unnerving and uncomfortable so I tend to avoid clothing which could be construed as sexy or inviting, but let's face it, if you're pretty, a garbage bag is a turn on to the average joe. It sounds like you're a very classy beautiful intelligent girl and let me tell ya, in my experience and the experience of other classy beautiful intelligent gals, it's almost impossible to "get away with" being beautiful AND intelligent cause men in business aren't often very comfy when you are both. Particularly guys who feel insecure around women can get downright nasty. With this particular dude, you have to find your ground because his abuse will escalate. He'll push as far as he can. Uninvited touching is crossing a glaringly obvious line. He knows this already. It may not be possible for you to address this incident, but you'll need to come up with a ready response because you can expect more from this guy. Sexual harassment/univited touching is a form of bullying. His touch was invasive, a show of power. I'd avoid seeing him alone in his office in the future - try and have witnesses present. In the event you find yourself in a similar situation, you need to deal with it immediately. Firmly, but without so much as a speck of emotion...i.e. like Emma Peal would. Oh and re the comments about you shouldn't wear fishnets, well with this guy I'd up the ante and hike up the skirt a little. Make the beeotch sweat. A tough - i.e. beautiful AND classy AND intelligent woman - is no pushover regardless of what she's wearing. Maybe you can find some lethal weapon pantyhose. Go fish!

Lots of advice and opinions here and since you asked for it...

I've worked in male-dominated fields all my life: auto trade, horse racing and software development. I've learned that you can't change your boss and you can't make men stop playing power games - you can only try to play the game better than them. Alternatively, since you can't change your boss, sometimes the only other option is to change your job.