This Fish Needs A Bicycle

I know that there is a God. I know that the universe is way to intricate and entertaining to just be a big mistake. I was raised in the church, and way down deep, I do believe that God loves me... it's just that at this point in my life, I'm not to sure if he likes me...

I am sure that, for you, everything is going to turn out alright. You have to believe what is right for you. And sometimes that cannot be pigeon-holed into one belief system.

That question is always asked, but never answered.

"I do good, I treat people well and I understand the reasons why I should. And none of them have anything to do the expectation of a reward in heaven." This, is beautiful. Well put.

I guess my question is whether you could have arrived where you are without the beginning that you had. Surely it shaped you in some way rather than giving you a reason to doubt?

I tend to feel two ways about this: on the one hand, children are generally taught by rote at a young age until they can later be taught by reason. Can you teach compassionate reasoning by rote somehow? Or is that more of a "teach by example" situation?

On the other hand, it almost seems better for people to live the "bad" life when they are young - first because the church loves converts and welcomes former sinners and second because that means the person gets to experience everything and has a much greater wisdom about "worldly" things when it comes to the second half of their life. People raised in a naive way, it would seem to me, have a much greater chance of being tempted or going astray because they don't know anything about the world outside of what they've been taught.

I relate to this post very much... Throughout college I considered myself a strong believer, and had a lot of friends with similar views. Now that I am less sure that I believe in God, I'm lost a lot of friends who think I've gone off the deep end... Thanks for the post!

There are religious folk who commit atrocities and atheists who act like saints, and vice versa of course. My brother, the newly minted Penatacostal, would disagree but to me it's what you do that that matters most. I don't care if someone worships toast-points and brickbats so long as they get along with those around them.

Nice post, very thoughtful.

Best thing I ever did for myself was go to a new place where people were different, and thought differently. Scary how many people out there refuse to take that risk.

In my own experience I went full circle, almost. When younger I held a strong religious belief in God. As I grew older, somewhere around my senior year of high school, so did my doubt in an Almighty as taught to me in my Baptist upbringing. It was not until about three years ago that I rediscovered faith. And I did not do it in a church. I did it in another place among loving people with whom I could relate. There is talk of God, but no one's view of what is right in God's world is necessarily the same. There is room enough for all. Inclusive, not exclusive. That's a group motto that I find appealing.

Partially it was the lack of tolerance and understanding that drew me away from organized religion in the first place. This new relationship with God bases itself on spirituality, love, tolerance and humility and practices those principals without preaching.

I personally have not set a foot in church excluding funerals and this one occassion where I humored a friend in the last ten years. I'm not excluding religion in the future, just not today. And I am fine with that because I feel fine today in my head and in my heart. For me God resides in one and calms the other when I am taking the proper actions. And I can lay claim to those right actions. I can't just pray everything better. I've got to act.

Don't know why I shared all of that. It just felt like a good forum to share. Like others have stated, it all comes down to what works for you.

God or no God, it seems to me failure is just as important as success -- hardships propel us forward in our growth more than anything else. I don't believe in a God-fearing sort of deity, but I do believe in a benevolent and "everything for a reason" energy that carries us all. Regardless, I believe it's always good to question everything...blind acceptance of ANYTHING is never a good thing!

When I read you 'answer questions' post, I started reading Dooce. I was pleasantly surprised that she lives in Salt Lake, and a 'recovering mormon.' So reading this entry, I realize you are also a RM;p I have been reading your writing for over a year, and have also read all the previous entries. Never once did it occur to me that you are a RM. How awesome;p thanks for the inspiration. ;p

Bravo, Fish, Bravo.

when you get sick and have no one to turn to not even doctors can help-you will turn to God, trust me on this. As for all your successes in life-it depends on how you define success..
the parties the drinks the work promotions, the flirting, the hot mules the money, the hot coffee and running in the morning, good haircuts, are ALL fillers, inconsequential fillers.

I think you may be wrong, Tomasina. I have experience in such things.

And frankly, God does not equal meaning. Sure, those things are fillers, but life does not necessarily boil down to God or religion. There are basics that are much, much more tangible than that.

I think Tomasina has read your blog and is attempting to play on what she thinks might be your weak spot.

Who's to say what's a filler? People find beauty, love, and sometimes G-D in many places.

The thing about religon is, most people end up doing "the right thing" out of fear. I'm a nonbeliever, and I try to do the right thing because, well, it's the right thing to do. I follow the golden rule because how else are we all going to survive in this world? We're all pretty inconsequential, so take your love and beauty where you can find it and enjoy it while it lasts.

I guess what I've never understood about the church is its desperate need to convince everyone that it has the truth figured out.

If the existence of God is immutable, won't we all come to that through whatever means we choose? Whether that's the church and mormon dogma or bucking the church and having a cocktail, if there's only one ultimate reality, won't we all get there eventually? If what they preach is "true," why do that have to preach it so hard? Don't they trust in God enough to believe that if he/she/it exists, we'll all come to that in our own time, in our own way?

Personally, I have always had a much easier time finding God in a bottle of great pinot or beautiful painting than in any church I've ever stepped foot in.

I think I'm an 'almost believer' in God, but a rejecter of religion (if you see what I mean!). What moved and impressed me about your post is the courage it takes to let go of the certainty of the black and white reasoning/faith that you talk about to move to a position of uncertainty - how much more difficult and uncomfortable is that? And yet what you say about what you have discovered about your own resources is inspiring and hopeful. What you say resonates with my own sense of self-responsibilty and achievement - I make my own decisions and reap my own rewards.

It looks to me that you may have had some rather mixed rewards so far (from the bits that I've read as I gradulaly trawl the archive), but that overall the trend is upward, so well done!

Fish, you're the best. Don't listen to the preachy-preachers' comments. Your beliefs are yours and yours alone.

The 'basics' Fish, as well you know, are a good heart and to love and be loved in return.
What you wrote here in this post is wonderful and so full of knowing. Most appreciated that you can share.

I have no problem with believing or disbelieving (though personally I 'dis') but it is those who refuse to let me disbelieve what I choose who really get my goat. If there is a God, and if he really is as good and kind and just and all seeing and all knowing as they say, then surely he will see that I have been a pretty good person my whole life, without the fear of eternal damnation hanging over my head. Surely I'll get brownie points for that. And on Judgement Day, should it come, I'll be the first to say, "Ooops, sorry God, but that Darwin sure had a persuasive argument."

Your post certainly expressed a lot of things I have been thinking lately.

I guess for me it's become a question of why should I choose to believe that there's a God who created the world in six days, made man out of some dirt, gave him free will, got pissed and flooded the entire world except for a few choosen ones and so on... instead of believing that the world is held together by a bunch of songlines, or that there was a prince who gave it all up, suffered and became enlightened..?

'Because God said so,' is sort of using the argument that God exists because He said so and I know that's true because I believe it...

Anyway... thanks.

hm. religion, politics, and sports. i thoroughly believe in God/Jesus, i voted for bush (i know, i know!), and i think the rockets rock. i also respect everyone, treat everyone with respect, don't believe wars bring peace, and am the most compassionate person i know. to.each.her.own.

I agree 100%.

There is a difference between vulgar religion and the turning of the soul towards the Great Mystery.

But religions that base their attractions upon childish ideas of hell and heaven - deserve to be laughed at by any intelligent observer of life. (As elegantly observed by Maimonedes in his Guide to the Perplexed. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp.htm)

Howvere to discount all the beauty and sublime joy to be found in facing that which can never be named - because of experience with the vulgar and small-minded versions of faith that are promulagated from the pulpit; is a great loss.

(As his to ignore the ancient literature on the subject. http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/ and http://www.come-and-hear.com/supplement/sephir.html)

I believe that if you live a good life, you'll meet a good end. But the choices must be yours, and not how others, be it written or preached, say you should be.

I am a devout Catholic and daily reader of your site. I thoroughly enjoy it and feel like I've known you for almost a year. (I started reading last summer.) I love your writing and this post is no different. I completely understand what you're saying and it is a choice that each person must make.

All I can say is good luck with your journey!

I am in the process of moving to the gray area with The Church myself. I have been fighting inactivity for the better part of 2 years. I am not ready to denounce the whole shebang, but damn, there are some problems with viewing the universe in black and white.

Go Fish.

I've found that when I replace the term "God" with "The Universe" the whole mess makes a little more sense to me.

p.s. thanks for the post.

This was a great post.
One point...
Almost all wars have been fought because of religion.

**** Content Removed by This Fish ****

Do NOT use my comment box to post inflammatory, personal attacks on other commenters.

I don't put up with that shit.

aaaah, a Fish out of water..I appreciate your candor. Good forum today.

that's exactly how i feel! except replace your mormon with my baptist and your 5 yrs to my 10. word for word! i love you fishy.

This must be "Talk About God on Your Blog Day." I did it and just read two others who did it, too. This little blogging world can be odd. . .

Hmmm... try,

"A Short History of Progress" by Ronald Wright

I think all those things that Tomasina mentioned ARE inconsequential fillers. Because really, when it comes right down to it...we are all going to die...what then? It's what you do about it now that matters...because no one knows how much time they have, and quite frankly too late, is just too late.

I think that God gave us the ability to question him, to disagree with him, and to be angry with him...but none of that includes disbelief of him.

Many of his best relationships have been with people who have doubted, and who have argued with him. But they ALWAYS believed.

I was not always a believer. I am a late in life born again Christian. Each new day reminds me of what it is to be without Jesus, and how blessed I am to be with him.

I hope to never go back to that place...it was dark, lonely, and filled with empty success.

wonderful post. i think most people have struggled with religion at one point or another in their lives. you have to, part of learning and growing is to question the molds you've grown up with. i myself still havent reconciled that within myself. i'm jewish, have just gone to israel on a 2 week birthright trip, and still am conflicted with how i feel about religion, god, etc. what i hate is that religion is such a divider. as a post above mentioned, most wars have been fought because of religion. but when you boil it down, all religions have the same guiding principles. it's the specifics that make us at odds. it's completely nonsensical to me that people belive that only x group goes to heaven, all others are wrong. religious fanatics who try to force their viewpoints down my throat, who want to convert everyone to their religion, it all seems bizzare to me. if we're all the same, what will make us interesting? we should use other people and other viewpoints to learn and grow, not reject them and try to homogenize them. whew, that's my rant for the day. i really respect you, fish, for being so strong to reject what your family and friends think is right because you feel its wrong for you.

I'm with Kassi - although not late-born. I met God when I was younger, and while I questioned why things were the way they were, I was always sure of His love.

Later, after substantial time apart, He wooed me into a deeper relationship with Him that has been stronger and more satisfying than any other relationship I've ever had. Plus, the influence He's had on me has made me a better person in my relationships with others - the more time I spend with Him, the more He rubs off on me if I let Him.

The more time I spend with Him, the more I realize that what others refer to as "religion" is a poor attempt to simplify the nuts and bolts of relationship with Him - it's trying to make a system out of what is best described and enjoyed as a relationship.

Have I ever seen Him? No - not face to face, but in the faces of others who know Him. Have I ever heard Him speak audibly? No - but I have heard His love in the voices of others who reminded me of His grace.

One of His quirks seems to be that He prompts discussions about Himself among those who deny His existence.... Tricky, huh? :) I've never met any of you face to face, but I know you exist because of what you've written and because of the impact you've had on others.

It would be nice to meet you IRL - it might be worthwhile to try the same with God. He wrote a wonderful book - available pretty much everywhere - that tells you anything you'd want to know.

nicely stated lawyerchick. I too agree that it is a relationship and not a 'religion' that God wants with us.

i'm in this state of questioning myself; i grew up in a Christian family, raised w Christian values, taught that 'i plan but God determines', and now i'm wondering whether if i weren't brought up that way, if i'd still be a Christian today. still waiting for the answer for that, but i can say this, though: i do good and treat people well, not because i'm trying to score points to get to heaven, and not because i fear that He's going to strike me down if i don't, but because i know that it's the right thing to do.

My husband grew up always being a Christian, and he is going through his own tests of faith. I see him questioning his beliefs...and I wonder if the force of faith/religion at such a young age is a good thing. I am very glad to have had the opportunity to come into Christ at my age. But now I am posting too often on this board...so I apologize. I just think that this topic is interesting.

And Fish...I am not at all disagreeing with your decision. I just have a different perspective, and I respect yours...as it is not my place to judge you or anyone else.

What a great post! Thank you!

As one who was "brought up in" church and met God at an early age, I liken it to raising a child: how many of us would say "OK, kid. I'm not going to tell you what to do or what not to do - you will learn as you go."

Although there were many times I resented the boundaries and restrictions on my choices that existed if I chose to follow them, I look back on those times and see how those boundaries and the training they provided protected me from so much!

You all are so wonderful, though!! Fish, thanks for bringing up this topic and allowing people to comment on it in safety! And everyone else has been so courteous (except for the one you deleted! :)) about other people's experiences and beliefs. Very cool!!

Hi all, this is my first visit here, and I'm glad I found it. I love discussions about faith and belief systems. We are all on a spiritual journey. Good luck with yours!

Maybe a little love of God would go a long way for you, rather than fear?

This notion of right and wrong is very dangerous. I believe in absolute right - but I also believe we can't know what that is. It's not simple, as you say. Nor can we really achieve it. I think that's why some religious people can be very religious and yet not be too judgmental.

I wish for you some of those people in your life.

I don't envy you your search for answers, we all have that road to take though... It's life long I believe and clarity comes and goes depending on our focus...
Being an inactive mormon and prone to many a drink and coed sleep overs I would still question if you even had a real understanding of what you were being taught... my guess no...
I think you were on to something when you said your obedience is out of fear and pride.... Duh your questioning your faith... you never had any to start with!!!! I wouldn't beat yourself up over your weaknesses, when you get to a point where you want to be there because of your love of God, and you can not feel that damning guilt for being a human like he created you, then you'll be at a more balanced place... If you only think of it in terms of fear, judgment and punishment, your missing the whole point....
OF course, most do!
Have you ever talked to a bishop??? I have, i'm over 30 and still working though things... I've never had a bishop tell me I was going to hell, or even remotely judge me.... always telling me how much God loves me etc.... It's usually parents that throw guilt on people, and we are a close second to throwing it on ourselves....

I don't have a problem with religious people, I say follow your heart, what ever brings you comfort... but Damn those religious parents... Mine aren't so i'm lucky... but I have many a messed up friends because their parents just don't get it!!!!

Anyway, Good luck with all that, you're to young to say always or forever about anything.... so just be open to learn, don't close anything off completely... not extreme is healthy....

Love your Blog!

Rock on, girlfriend!
I've never been able to grasp the whole "god" concept myself, although I was raised with religion. It never had much substantial meaning to me and it certainly does not today. As long as you conduct your life in the best way you are capable, you'll be all right. That's all anyone can do and it's not about someone else's version of "right".
I'll leave it at that.

Well, the toothpaste is out of the tube, and it ain't goin back in.

One of my favorite lines regarding this is from "Antonia's Line", a brilliant Dutch film:
"I don't believe in religion because it makes me compromise my intellect." (Paraphrased for your convenience)

You may or may not find this relevant, but it seems to make sense to me. Isaac Asimov once said that he actually dreamed this:

--------------------

I dreamed I had died and gone to Heaven. I looked about and knew where I was — green fields, fleecy clouds, perfumed air, and the distant, ravishing sound of the heavenly choir. And there was the recording angel smiling broadly in greeting.

I said, in wonder, "Is this Heaven?"

The recording angel said, "It is."

I said [and on waking and remembering, I was proud of my integrity], "But there must be some mistake. I don't belong here. I'm an atheist."

"No mistake," said the recording angel.

"But as an atheist how can I qualify?"

The recording angel said sternly, "We decide who qualifies. Not you."

--------------------

Which may mean simply that those who are most certain of their eternal destiny are the ones with the least justification for their certainty.

And, as someone wiser than I once said, while faith is to be respected, doubt is what gets you an education.

Hey, I'm back! I've been (and still am) exactly where you are. I lost my faith about a year ago, but my mom still forces me to go to church. I just consider my youth group to be like a singles bar:A good place to meet ladies that has music in the background that nobody listens to. Faith and religion is a load of crap.

frankendick.blogspot.com

PS:Go Miami Heat!

Zach

I could never call the mormon faith simple. I wonder if by "I outgrew simple," you really meant "I grew into the need for understanding." I experimented with mormonism when I was in highschool because I thought I was in love with a mormon boy. I tried very hard to understand it but in the end had to reject it because it just never made sense to me.
I have no problem accepting God's existence and orchestration in my life. But I could never make the leap from that to "believe first, then you'll see it's true," or "the church leaders have handed out one-sentence solutions to the tough questions about the validity of our beliefs. Therefore, no more thought or discussion past those answers is neccessary." These are things I could never grasp.
---------
On a side note, I would say that most fear is healthy. I don't touch the hot iron becasue I'm afraid of pain. Consequently, I avoid doing damage to my body. I don't smoke because I'm afraid of lung cancer and illness. Is one cigarette going to kill me? Probably not. But avoiding them alltogether keeps me healthy.
Is God going to smote you down for drinking or having a co-ed sleepover? Probably not. But actions and beliefs have consequences, whether immediate or in the distant future. Fear is a healthy tool to keep us away from the slippery slope.
Incidentally, if you've ever examined the text of the Bible, the "laws" and "rules" established by God were generally clearly for the people's benefit, to keep them from harming themselves both physically and emotionally.

that was a beautiful well-written essay. Religion is always so difficult to explain...

Someone sent me the link to your blog a few months ago and I have been reading it almost religiously since then. The friend who sent me your link said your writing reminded her a bit of me so I had to check it out and I think I'm drawn in because you say things much in the same way that I would. I added a link to you from my blog...it's mostly just read by my closest friends but hopefully they'll wander over here too and find some inspiration.

Thank you for posting and speaking your mind...it's tough being a 20-something, single female in this world. Kudos to all of us 20-something, single females!

I didn't even bother to read today's boring post. I just wanted to point out that you CAN'T KEEP ME OUT!

Who's your daddy?

Growing up in the First Baptist Church in McKinney I think we were raised pretty much the same (except I was always taught the Mormons, Catholics, Hindus, etc., etc.are all going to hell.). At least you grew up in what I think was a more "tolerant intolerance".

My view on diety is that God made us what we are. We are human with all the human frailites that go along with being human. He's/She's/It's NEVER surprised when we act like humans. I personally NEVER surprise God. I always act very human.

Love your Blog. Wish I'd have known you when we both lived in McKinney.

Kat

Chilean poet Pablo Neruda said, "To know that you are cared for by someone is one of life's greatest gifts."

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:4-10)

My father went to schools taught by Jesuits and every time we (his children) disagree with the church, he surprises us with his answers. Of course, he's a philosophy major so with that and studying under Jesuits I think he has excellent training not just in orthodoxy or dogma but in theology and the intellectual side of the church. In some ways, I think knowing it back to front is helpful in getting to more simple answers.

I have been a Christian for 13 years and it was in college that I came to see my faith and my relationship with God in a less black and white way. Not that my faith has become less; it has simply allowed me to live with more acceptance and ultimately more love for others. I don't like religion..it makes me sick and makes me want to run. Faith and a relationship with Christ, those are things that keep me grounded and allow me to live a life full of grace. Here is a verse from the New Testament that has pointed me in that direction:

1 Corinthians 10: 23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

I'm have been wavering back and forth on this subject forever. I'm sure I always will.

I've always been an atheist, and everything's turned out fine (so far!) for me.

Fish--I gave up on God in my early teens and organized religion in my early 20s (they're not exactly one and the same, though I probably did it in reverse order from most people!). This is a tough issue--it was for me at first--but now that I'm in my 40s, I can say I'm not sorry. I have a busy, full life, surrounded by loved ones--both religious and not (it's their choice, not mine). I try to avoid "sin" according to my mother's definition, not organized religion's version: "Sin is something that hurts people." Sin has nothing to do with a specific faith in one religion's "god" or having a cocktail or marrying your life partner who happens to be of the same sex. Not having a faith in God means I believe people are all we've got, so let's be as nice to each other as possible.

You're awesome, Fish--don't let anyone try to guilt-trip you into thinking otherwise!!

I was born and raised in Utah as well, and even though I was baptized into the Mormon Church at age 15, I was never really a believer in the whole Joseph Smith and the plates thing. Since that day I was what a lot of people called a "jack mormon". I was mormon, but I didnt go to church and didnt believe in a lot of the things they taught. One reason was that the Bible could disprove just about everything that was mormon doctrine. Another was that it just felt wrong. It didnt mesh with me. So for the next 12 years of my life I went about my business believing that as long as I was a good person, didnt kick old ladies and didnt steal or murder people, I was all right.

How wrong I was. I know now, since finding out what TRUE Christianity is and having given my heart to Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world, that although God wants me to do nice things for people, be a good person and not kick old ladies, that all I REALLY have to do is have faith in Him, the one that created me, accept that I am a sinner and that I need his help and I will have eternal life.

People say to me all the time: "You cant see God, you cant touch Him, or feel Him, and how do you know the Bible is true??? Not only that, but I have prayed to God for things and he hasnt helped me!" All I can say is this: Its called faith, its called believing in a higher power, something that is bigger than us and this world. And as far as Him not answering prayers: God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows what is in your heart, what is going to happen to you and what that event will do to you or for you. He doesnt have to answer your prayers, but He can and He will. You may need to learn something from your experience and nothing else in your life could make you learn that, so He puts you through it, so you will hopefully learn. God loves all people. God loves murderers, rapists, child molesters. He doesnt like thier actions, but he DOES love THEM. As far as people fearing God, you should, definitely. But He loves you more than you could ever fear Him. I might not know all the answers, and I might be wrong about my perceptions of Biblical things, but I know I would rather believe (not out of fear, but out of respect for that higher power that I believe created all things) than meet my maker, have known but not believed and miss out on all He has in store for me.

Well, my comment is not particularly deep, or profound. And by not particularly I mean not at all. But this post reminded me greatly of a weakerthans song "aside",

"And I'm leaning on this broken fence between Past and Present tense/And I'm losing all those stupid games that I swore I'd never play./But it almost feels okay/Circumnavigate this body of wonder and uncertainty./Armed with every precious failure, and amateur cartography"

I apologize for the emo-ness that is posting lyrics on a blog. In time i hope you'll learn to forgive me.

The toothpaste is out of the tube indeed!

Religion is a reflection of humanity, that's what I think. It is therefore as simple, complicated, sacred, ridiculous, fiercely precious, hideously intolerant, rife with possibilities, good, bad, deeply meaningful, and shockingly nonsensical as the human race. Opining about something so deeply embedded in the experience of being human can never lead anywhere but into further questions. Anyone who has experienced life for five seconds knows that there are no absolutes, or none that we can know, anyway.

I love this post Fish. It is as fabulous and as interesting as you are, because it is a genuine reflection of a part of you.

I love your blog I read it all the time, but that gave me chills it was bloody amazing ! I love how you write.

I agree w/what fisher said"Personally, I have always had a much easier time finding God in a bottle of great pinot or beautiful painting than in any church I've ever stepped foot in." Raised in Church and being a Christian brings on many Q's and not very many A's, especially as one gets older. My family left the church many years ago not because they were renouncing a faith but looking for more than what a mere human (preacher) could offer(to put it as simply as I can). I believe there is a God and I can see him reflected in my baby boy's eyes everyday. I just wanted to respond and I enjoyed reading your blog today. It always makes me turn inward and reflect on my own life. Thanks for sharing.

I'm another of the many people who can relate perfectly to your story. I'm nineteen, and I left the church, religion, and the whole idea of God behind about a year ago. It was really hard at the time, but now I'm enjoying life so much more. I don't regret anything... I can't say I never will, or that I won't go back... but right now, I thoroughly believe in disbelief.

Great blog. I'm a Christian, have been my whole life - and that's a definite choice. I am always really excited when people question a 'religion' they have been brought up with ... whether or not they decide that it's right and it becomes a faith, or they go hunting for other answers / faiths, or they are content to believe in just being alive and living for all they're worth, I'm just thrilled that they are THINKING and QUESTIONING. i think, just personally, that one of the most dangerous things in any belief system [and I think atheism is a belief system too :)] is BLIND ACCEPTANCE. It's just not smart or intelligent. Another thing - it's just so nice to have people putting up comments without trying to sway opinions one way or another - just allowing others to express themselves - thanks for providing a forum Fish :)

apologies for overuse of word 'just' in previous post!!

I recently rejected organized religion for myself. About five years ago I stopped attending Catholic Mass, after 12 years of parochial school, mostly because I was in college and needed the sleep more than the spirituality. And now I find myself completely rejecting organized religion because its rules are man-made. The Bible was written by men, with their biases and the prejudices of that era. I'm not comfortable with the idea that the Bible is the final word on all existence, not comfortable with man-made Church laws that preach eternal damnation if we don't do it their way. I still believe in a higher being, in the "be good to others and be a good person" style of religion, but it's liberating to proudly say that the "Church" is not for me.

The 3 best things I've ever read re: religion/God:

Our prayers should be for blessings in general, for God knows best what is good for us.
- Socrates

All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no one was born with a knowledge of God.
- Voltaire

Jesus Loves You! Everyone else thinks you're an asshole!
- Bumper Sticker in Charleston, SC