Can men and women be friends? I’ve always thought the answer to that was, “Absolutely. Of course. Why not?” I have plenty of male friends — most many of whom I’ve never even made out with. I know. Such restraint. But are those actual, honest-to-god friendships without any strings attached? I decided to ask some friends — male and female — what they thought about the matter. The result was pretty entertaining.
Goldner, our very favorite non-boyfriend boy:
Heather: We’re friends, right?
Goldner:: You and I? Yes.
Heather: Good. Well, you know how they say women and men can’t really be friends. Why do you think that is?
Goldner:: Men are too stupid and women are too pretty. It makes for a bad combination.
Heather: Ha! Do you think one or the other always has ulterior motives in being friends? You know, the sexy kind?
Goldner:: Always? No. Often? Yes.
Heather:: Probably initially anyway.
Goldner:: Definitely. You and I met at a bar, sorta. There was definitely the “Oh, ok” moment. It was only later that I realized you hated me.
Heather:: I did not hate you. I was sleeping with your boss, if you recall. Which isn’t the same thing as hating. Redirecting… are friendships with girls more complicated than with boys? We might be an exception to that, because you are more sensitive than I am. I might actually be the guy in the scenario sometimes.
Goldner:: Also you pee standing up.
Heather:: Shh! I’m not ready for the Interweb to know that.
Goldner:: I think that generally yes, women are more sensitive, and they don’t say what they mean. I speak English; women speak … something else. Like, “It’s fine” means “You’re in trouble.” Or “Nothing” means “You’re in trouble.”
Heather:: Sounds like you’re in trouble quite a bit. Redirecting again, attraction between friends is pretty unavoidable. So, is that something you ignore, or acknowledge and accept? I mean, which is better, for the survival of the friendship?
Goldner:: Accept. I’d rather take a chance on something great (and maybe lose a friend down the road). I have “favorite mistakes” if you will.
Heather:: So you hold out hope. But is that the basis of the friendship?
Goldner:: No. That’s deluding yourself.
Heather:: I mean, you and {girlfriend} were friends for like, forever. Then kablaam!, making out.
Goldner:: Well, that took a lot of hypnosis. She and I were friends. If she were not attractive, we’d still be friends. I wouldn’t want to date someone i cant be friendly with. At least, not for more than a little bit 
Heather:: Ha! Perfect. I think that will do.
Goldner:: That was easy. I didn’t even get to talk dirty.
Heather:: Maybe next time.
Goldner:: You always say that.
Jen, girl friend and travel partner:
Heather: Can men and women be friends?
Jen: Sure. You can have “like brother and sister” friends or you can have the “one of us is semi-interested” friends. Either ultimately works, but if you wanna call it pure friendship, I’d say they’re in the minority.
Heather: Do you think sex is always a factor? I mean, can we be friends with a man and never once think about him in that regard? Even just to size him up?
Jen: No. Absolutely not. Unless you aren’t interested in men as potential life partners. That’s what sucks — you’re always judging a little, but, that’s biology for you.
Heather: It has to be purely biology. Because often, it’s against my will that I even think it. Take my married friend, whom I adore, for instance. One day, the naked thought flashed across my mind, and I was so ANGRY that it even had. I really loved the friendship for its simplicity, so it bugged me that a weird, impulsive, uncontrolled thought could creep in. It made me feel dirty.
Jen: Totally! You’re like “Why am i staring at his hand? I AM NOT INTERESTED.” That’s the toughest one of all. Marriage changes your guy friendships, too. I was so, so close with my friend, and nothing was ever going to happen between us. And then he got married and all of a sudden it’s SO uncomfortable.
Heather: Because some stupid gland in your brain is always trying to find you a partner.
Jen: It’s not fair, because nothing was going to happen!
Heather: But now that it can’t, biology is pissed.
Jen: I know. Like, Move along, you two. I used to be adamant that pure friendship was totally normal and easy between men and women but I think I was just in denial.
And finally, Todd (aka Indie Rock Boy of blogging past), former co-worker and make-out partner:
Heather: Can women and men can actually be friends?
IRB: It’s pretty tough. I’m pretty sure one of them always wants to jump the others’ bones.
Heather: Hmm. Though we may be long-distance friends these days, I’d still consider you my friend.
IRB: Sure we are.
Heather: Well, neither one of us jumped the other’s bones.
IRB: In our case, I think we both want to jump each other. But haven’t.
Heather: We just were too smart to?
IRB: Perhaps.
Heather: So that’s the basis of our friendship? Bone-jumping potential?
IRB: No, no. I like you a lot. I wish we lived nearer. You make me laugh… in addition to all that bone stuff.
And…we’ll stop right there. Because after that, the conversation became more of a… Tell All Thursday one. You know, the kind that makes you want to get drunk and ruin your friendship.
Obviously, my opinion on the matter has shifted somewhat.
Wow, I’m pretty smart. And funny, too!
Yes, but Goldy, wait for the OTHER people to say it.
Hi Heather -
Ever read The Ladder Theory (Google!)? It’s an interesting take on your question about whether men and women can really be friends.
I think I have to agree most with your first and last conversations. I have a TON of guy friends and I’ve either slept with or made out with most of them. Someone always like the other someone and things get complicated. But some of my closest friendships and best previous relationships are from friends that I ended up jumping their bones. Maybe you should get drunk and ruin your friendship….
That raises some interesting sub-questions, like if you have only been friends with people for whom you know you have no attraction, does that mean they are secretly attracted to you? (In which case, maybe, ICK!)
Or, alternatively, did you miss out on something really special because you didn’t think the guy was into you and thus settled into the “friend zone”?
And finally, if you thought you were friends, and the guy wanted to be “just friends” and now neither of you speaks to the other one, what happened?
[OK, maybe these only happen to me...]
I think the rest of that little chat with IRB should be THIS Thursday’s post!
And damn that biology!
wow, Goldner’s pretty smart. and funny too!
and i almost forgot handsome.
re: IRB……absence makes the fart go honda.
Men and women can be friends without taking it to the next level, but as I’ve found over the years, those are usually friends from work, etc. It’s when you start hanging out together and start doing things outside of the usual environment you met them in that leads to one or the other wanting more of a relationship. At least from my experience…
Seriously? I think that the sexual undertone is always there with a male/female friendship- one apart from the work environment, of course. If you are repeatedly getting drunk together, going out to together, etc…eventually something will happen. I know there were a few friends I even had the sympathy sex with once- as in, “I like you, but I don’t want to be in a sexual relationship with you” way.
My solution in my thirties? I started hanging out with a lot of gay male friends. They were cute, witty and had style. And no sex issues about me, at all.
Harry Burns: You realize of course that we could never be friends.
Sally Albright: Why not?
Harry Burns: What I’m saying is – and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form – is that men and women can’t be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally Albright: That’s not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry Burns: No you don’t.
Sally Albright: Yes I do.
Harry Burns: No you don’t.
Sally Albright: Yes I do.
Harry Burns: You only think you do.
Sally Albright: You say I’m having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry Burns: No, what I’m saying is they all WANT to have sex with you.
Sally Albright: They do not.
Harry Burns: Do too.
Sally Albright: They do not.
Harry Burns: Do too.
Sally Albright: How do you know?
Harry Burns: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally Albright: So, you’re saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
Harry Burns: No. You pretty much want to nail ‘em too.
Sally Albright: What if THEY don’t want to have sex with YOU?
Harry Burns: Doesn’t matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
Sally Albright: Well, I guess we’re not going to be friends then.
Harry Burns: I guess not.
Sally Albright: That’s too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.
Can you really pee standing up?! My respect for you has just gone up another notch.
Ha! No, that’s just Goldner being a smartass.
No.
Unless someone is gay, sex always gets in the way. I’ve come to a point in my life where I can’t even trust anyone who would say otherwise — unless both parties find each other completely wanting in a physical sense. And if that’s the case, would these people actually seek each other out enough to bond and become “friends” ? Highly unlikely.
Personally I find it awkward to revert to “just friends” with someone that I’ve slept with. I’d also be uncomfortable if my boyfreind had a lot of female friends that he had previously been physical with. I don’t have a problem with the friendship thing. It’s the sexual attraction that makes me nervous. My ex had a fling that he stayed friends with and it drove me crazy to see her around him. Then again, I am the jealous type.
Jumping bones notwithstanding, sounds like another TV conversation between Lucy and Ricky Ricardo. “Lucy you got some splainin to do.” How you sleep w/ boss and keep job. Joan Rivers says, “grow up would you?” Just friends, lovers no more. Yep – men have feelings too, but it starts in us when we’re little.
This calls for a song and a sitcom for the occassion.
Butch from the Little Rascals sung this:
Just friends, lovers no more
just friends, but not like before
to think of what we’ve been
and not to kiss again
seems like pretending
it isn’t ending
two friends drifting apart
just two friends
but one broken heart
we loved we laughed we cried
suddenly love died
the story ends
and we’re just friends
Two friends, drifting part
two friends, but one broken heart
we may have loved and laughed and cried
but suddenly love died
the story ends
(Big Finish) and we’re just friends
Alternatively – War’s ‘Why Can’t we be Friends’. On fatal breakup – We can still be friends, can’t we?
Dang! Jen hit something that made me realize I’m not the only one who would sometimes have some crazy thought of a good female friend, like what would it be like if we had made out in some hot, passionate way. Such thoughts made me feel dirty, in a semi-good and semi-bad kinda way. And of course I’d go on feeling guilty for that semi-good dirty feeling part!
I think it is possible to have friends of the oppossite sex be purely platonic. A majority of my friends are female, and I can say that about 45% of them are purely platonic in nature (as opposed to secret bone-jumping hints). But having lots of female friends have its downfalls. I will always lose in conversations about how boys are always [fill in the blank], because the majority will just shut me up. Or that rumors go about in the wider friendship circle that I’m interested in so and so when I really am not. Or that it scares some of the girls I date away, as they honestly think I am the infidelity type of guy. Grr!!! It sucks to be me… =)
Your favorite media watcher chiming in one more time. The Big Debate (yeah, right, SNL already lampooned hardball w/ Chris Matthews) on MSN (who else). Can Jen & Brad be friends? Why does Denise Richardson want Charlie Sheen’s baby if they can’t stand each others guts. He said something like, “only if I can impregnate her from the moon”. I’d rather watch some kid from Queens get bloodied retrieving Bonds 756 homer. Take that San Francisco. Or a Hindu priest communicating with animals. Big feat. I already have a book on the Monks Zen way of training dogs. That didn’t work either.
I wouldn’t trade my guy friends for the world! And I will say that clearly it is POSSIBLE for men and women to be friends or we would not live in a co-ed society. However, in certain friendships the possibly something something factor doesn’t dissipate. In my case this doesn’t present a problem so long as both parties are aware of the situation on some level of consciousness. In fact, those are some of my favorite friendships… I can flirt freely with the full knowledge that we both know nothing is going to start and his girlfriend isn’t going to hate me for life.
and Joe…. that was awesome. Now I’m going to have a hankering for When Harry Met Sally all day…
No no no, they can’t be ‘real’ friends. Someone is always interested in bone jumping.I’d love to be wrong but in the experience of my female friends and myself its just not the case. Hey maybe going to an all girl catholic school has damaged me more than I know?
even my “safe” relationships with gay males ends up with too many sexual undertones. there is talk of “you are the one woman who could probably change my ways” etc… and it generally gets to the point where i don’t think he’s joking anymore.
i firmly believe that at least one of the parties involved would take it to the next level if given the opportunity. of the male/female relationships that have actually worked for me – we’ve acknowledged the attraction and gone on with our friendship.
I think it’s possible for men and women to just be friends. I have a couple of guy friends that I have been close with for 15+ years. One of which I have been extremely close with since 6th grade. There has never been any funny business and now he is engaged and I am just as close with his fiance as I am with him, no weirdness what so ever.
After the 40 days of mourning that followed my wedding day, it was easy for my female friends to remain friends with me.
Then I woke up, looked over, and noticed that my testicles were on my wife’s nightstand in a glass case that read “Since 2001″.
One of my best friends is a guy that I have known for 15 years. The funny thing is at the beginning of our friendship he started dating the girl that is now his wife and she and I became best friends. The greatest part is that i don’t have that awkward she is my best friend, but I can’t stand her husband. I get to love them both!
Recently, I’ve noticed that whenever I fist meet someone new (or really, even old friends) that I have split second of wondering if I could ever marry this person, and another split second of trying to envision it. It’s odd.
But, it leads me to think that unless he’s just downright despicable, you’ll at least have some fleeting thought.
I once had a guy tell me that he didn’t have female friends he only had “girls he hadn’t f*cked yet”. That permanently changed the way I looked at male-female relationships.
‘Where worlds collide’ Seinfeld episode is brought to mind where Elaine tries to mix friendship w/ George’s fiance. George says to Jerry “The George you once knew will no longer exist. There’s relationship George and hang-out George. The 2 worlds cannot exist.”
I say yes.
I grew up playing bball with the guys (all protective in the big brother sense and not just b/c I was their shooter aka secret weapon lols). Ppl speculated on the relationship. I’ll admit, while the rumors were false, I did harbor some naughty thoughts at times. Plus, there are those comfortably platonic friendships that can handle teasing/flirting.
But there’s exceptions and biology is pretty hard to fight sometimes. So I alwys try to deal with the reaction. Like, recently I found myself in the position where we stayed friends after becoming and ending the physical. Probably better friends for it. Though, I think it helped that(1)we started out as easy-going friends and(2)once we noticed the attraction kept getting stronger, we confronted it instead of tiptoeing around the pink elephant.
Could’ve ended badly and I might’ve lost a treasured friend, but I didn’t. My understanding of the male-female friendship expanded so now I say yes-depends! What’s life without taking a chance now ‘n then?
I find it ironic that the morning after confessing all my love to my closest guy friend, I come across this post. I could have never needed this advice more.
So, here I am. I took the plunge last night. I decided to “not tiptoe around the pink elephant.” I decided to come clean because life’s all about taking chances. The casual hand holding, kissing and cuddling in bed were driving me crazy. I needed black and white. Not gray. But he told me he’s a gray kind of a guy. So, we’re not going to take the chance in an attempt to preserve our friendship. We’re going to squelch the feelings and “take some time apart.” But, now our friendship’s screwed up anyway–without even attempting a relationship. Tell, me… where did all this honesty get us? I’m not even sure if it was worth it.
this is bad, but if you’re friends with a guy and you’re completely platonic and he doesn’t want to jump you, there are 1 of 2 reasons in my experience/talk with my FIVE brothers.
1) he’s gay
2) you’re a dog!
Jeanna~
I applaud you’re honesty with him. Speaking from a guy’s perspective, honesty is something we (I) rarely hear from women. Everyone always wants to play relationships “safe” so they can preserve them. And taking chances is what life is about. If you want to take it to the next level, then you have to step up and try. Otherwise, the relationship would languish or just stay friends. And it could have just as easily gone the way you wanted it to. But from the sound of things, it had already gone past a basic friendship anyway. It sounds to me like he’s just a bit shocked~ give him time.
I just left my boyfriend of more than a year. It broke down when his female friend of his started calling me yelling about how he never loved me and I would never understand the connection they had. He was “confused” about the situation, going on about not wanting to hurt her and needing to maintain the friendship. I’ve never been the jealous type but eventually I’d had enough. She can have him. Opposite sex friends are fine but boundries are very important.
Of course men and women can be friends. Isn’t marriage (supposed to be) to your best friend?
The real question is, can men and women be friends without sex or the thought of sex ever entering the picture on the part of either person?
The answer to that may very well be no.
I don’t believe this means that men and women can’t have amazing friendships. Sure you may find one another acttractive, and maybe consider or even act on the physical possibilities. One of my very best friends and I were together for a very brief period, things didn’t work out to continue that part of the relationship, because neither of us was ready, but we stayed and are still great friends.
I wholeheartedly believe men and women can be friends, with or without the physical stuff happening in the past or the potential for it in the future. You just have to be mature adults about all of it, or things can get very weird.
I love the last paragraph! lol I have those moment sometime… and i felt bad that i had them becauze i will be hurting someone if i act upon it.
It depends what kind of guy he is… if he’s too hot, he’s going to be tough to think about as just a friend.
I like being friends with guys. It’s less complicated and back-stabby and low maintenance. it gets weird when they like you or vice versa. luckily i’m one of the guys. Most of them end up being like brothers to me….
I do have guy friends that I would never consider anything further then the friendship, but mostly because I know so much about them and they repulse me in one way or another, I think guys are worse at it, women are better at faking like we aren’t into the guy, may for fear of rejection? I dunno…
I do have guy friends that I would never consider anything further then the friendship, but mostly because I know so much about them and they repulse me in one way or another, I think guys are worse at it, women are better at faking like we aren’t into the guy, may for fear of rejection? I dunno…
My take- I’m dating a guy who’s adorable, cooks, cleans, holds me and the sex is awesome. We started based off our friendship and he makes me laugh. However in the past year, I’ve found out most of his friends are female; and most of his female friends that live in town he cheated on his ex with. He’s not close with them anymore (cause I found out) but he’s got a list of them back home where he grew up. Some of the major issues I have had is them calling late at night wanting someone to flirt with, or when they have their own relationship problems and want attention; or his best friend who threw a fit about not having his attention anymore on IM all day long while he’s at work (and the sex dreams she’s said she’s had about him, etc, etc, etc). And when she comes into town, he asks her for help, whispers in her ear and leaves me out. He’s agreed to work on this, but talk about damage done. And I’m not a jealous person otherwise, but it sucks to be in love with someone who has no boundaries. And its hard to leave.
Yep! Most of my friends are guys and we can do it without it straying into the weird “do they like me as more than a friend” land.
This has been my theory for years, and I’ve yet to see it proven wrong with my friends . . .
If a guy and girl are friends, one of them is interested in more than a platonic friendship UNLESS one of the following exists:
1. One or both are married or otherwise taken
2. One or both are gay
3. There is an enormous age difference
4. They are co-workers and don’t spend time alone outside of work
5. They are related (cousins, etc.)
6. They’ve dated (or something of the kind) in the past
Of course, it can still turn into more than friendship even if one or more of these exist, but if all are absent in the relationship — one person has more than a friendly interest. Guaranteed.
Just wondering, who plagiarized who? One of you is not cool!
http://lizzvintage.blogspot.com/2007/08/just-friends.html
Um, seeing as I wrote mine a whole week before hers… I’d have to go with SHE is the copy cat. Man, that is so lame.
And, uh, I have all the interviews on IM.
Hmm . . . I suppose you could sue the plagiarizer for millions of bucks!!! Hahahaha.
Sheeeeesh! He/She must lead a very boring life, so uninteresting to blog about that he/she has to copy someone else’s blog.
For the last couple of months my boss has been coming on to me. It ususally happens when he has been drinking but he saya that is not why. He needed to drink to be able to get the nerve up to talk to me about it. Well than the other day we spent the whole day bonding and getting to know one another. He gave me several complaiments. i was wondering if anyone had any helpful hints as to figuring out if he is interested in me as a person or if he is just trying t get in my pants…. So how do you go about finding the signs to be able to tell